Getting Comfortable with Uncomfortable Conversations

Addressing anti-Zionist Jews in good faith.

In February, Seattle Jewish community member Tracy Brazg published what I thought was a brave essay in the Seattle Times. Titled “We can feel two ways at once regarding Israel-Hamas war,” she wrote, “I have a secret to tell my progressive friends in Seattle. I am a Zionist. I believe in the right of Israel to continue existing as a nation-state.”

She expresses her frustration and loneliness as a progressive Zionist, lamenting the “binary framing of the conflict” that “promotes the idea that to be a pro-Palestine advocate on the progressive left one must adopt specific norms” that disregard Jewish concerns and the longstanding normal democratic position that the conflict must resolve with a two-state solution. “This bizarre dystopian world in which we live misses the opportunity for meaningful solidarity of groups with shared values — in this case, the allyship of pro-Palestinian activists with progressive Zionist Jews,” she concludes. “How can we all find each other again in this mess?”

When I called Tracy to talk about this piece, and ask if she’d like to move some of this conversation over here to The Cholent, she shared that something positive had come out of this “mess,” and that’s what this newsletter is about today.

I’ve always been fascinated by people’s belief systems, from cult members to right-wing Christians to the birth of the Chabad Lubavitch movement…and more recently, anti-Zionist Jews. What could possibly be going on with these people who eschew the concept of a Jewish safe haven? I find myself unsatisfied with the explanations that they are simply “self-hating” and ignorant, theories that are usually spouted by people who have never bothered to talk to anyone across the aisle. What do self-described anti-Zionist Jews have to say for themselves?

I am clearly passionately supportive of Israel’s existence and safety. But that doesn’t put me above curiosity. I will always fight ideas — not people. As the Chabad movement taught me, we should never attack “fellow Yidden.” But argue with them? That is a Jewish value indeed.

Today’s conversation is not an argument, but rather an attempt to open up some lines of communication. As I said in a previous post, we are the only ones who can heal our own community.

“We’re just these broken people who are walking around the streets of Seattle.”

Emily: Tracy, can you tell me what you were feeling when you wrote the op-ed for the Seattle Times?

Tracy: Back in January, I was feeling distressed at the way that that the conversation around Israel/Palestine, Israel/Gaza was happening in our diasporic communities, that the identities that I belong to being a progressive in Seattle and being a Jewish person in Seattle, that neither of those places felt like they were holding all of what I was experiencing. I wrote that piece to yell into the internet, thinking that this way of talking about things wasn't helping anyone and certainly wasn't helping people who are actually living the realities of the conflict on the ground. But also because I think we have a local possibility for impact, but I don't think we can do that effectively if we're just yelling into our silos in these very monolithic and absolutist terms that don't allow for any kind of conversation. I wrote what I wrote after many, many conversations and feeling like there were things that I had to say that I didn't think others were necessarily saying.

Emily: What was the response like?

Tracy: I was surprised by the response from many Jewish people across the Zionist spectrum who were grateful for me speaking my piece. But I caught wind about the fact that what I had written was not resonating with a group of anti-Zionists who were organizing to send responses to the Seattle Times in critique. Three letters to the editor were published. One in complete agreement, one was agreeing and provided some critique, and the third one was written by someone named Sam who identifies as an anti-Zionist Jew and really called me out on some of the things that I had said as someone who identified and positioned myself as a progressive and a person who wanted to be a voice for ending the occupation. I read that letter and I thought to myself, hmm, this is sort of a scathing response to my piece, but actually there are some reasonable points in here. But also I feel like maybe I wasn't understood well by the person who wrote this letter in response to me. 

Emily: So then what happened?

Tracy: I went on LinkedIn and I wrote them a message: “Hey, it's Tracy from the Seattle Times. We're both yelling into our local newspaper, maybe we should talk to each other.” I wasn't really expecting a quick response or any response at all, but I got a very quick response, I think that day. They said, with a little bit of hesitation, “I'd be interested in talking to you, but what do you want to talk about? Because if you want to just convince me of your ways, I'm not sure that I'm interested in that, but tell me more about why you want to talk to me, and I might be interested.” I explained my position, my belief that we need to talk with each other rather than at each other, and they agreed to a Zoom call. The next week we met, both a bit nervous, and we ended up talking for two hours.

Emily: And that person happens to be here in this conversation with us now. Sam, you are the person on the other end of this dialogue. Can you describe how you felt when you got that message from Tracy, and from your perspective, what happened next?

Sam: I wrote my letter to the editor in response to Tracy's op-ed. I didn't know if it was going to get published, but very quickly I got a response back from the person running that page at Seattle Times. I kind of went back and forth about how I wanted to sign it and ultimately ended up signing it as an anti-Zionist Jew, which felt like a somewhat interesting choice for me to make. But I felt strongly about it. I had a feeling that I would get some kind of response, but I wasn't entirely sure what it would be.

I got an email saying that someone had messaged me [on LinkedIn], and I was like, “hmm, I wonder…” I opened LinkedIn and there was Tracy's message, and I think I panicked and texted a couple of my friends. I was like, “oh my God, that lady from the Seattle Times messaged me. What do I do? Do we think it's in good faith? Should I talk to her?” Tracy and I are laughing now because we talk to each other almost every day at this point. She's not just that lady from the Seattle Times anymore. But, you know, I think it speaks a little bit to the moment that many of us were in early on after October 7th. I think so many people were really deep in grief and deep in confusion and deep in this feeling of like, what happens next? So many of us were so upset with what other Jews and non-Jews were saying and what they seemed to be expressing as their priorities. It was really hard to talk to people we loved, let alone strangers.

I think because Tracy mentioned so many values that I felt like we shared in her letter, and because her message was not angry or pointing a finger at me, but more like she was interested in opening a dialogue, I thought, “well, you know, let's try. Why not?”

Emily: I want to go back to what you said about being positioned as an anti-Zionist, which was sort of a step for you. Could you start there and talk about what that was like? Was it a difficult decision?

Sam: One of the first things that Tracy and I actually talked about was trying to define our terms. Part of the difficulty of this conversation is that there are so many words that mean something different for everybody entering the conversation. And that's not entirely because people are wrong, but it's because historically there are lots of different definitions for these words, and people have different ideas of which of those definitions is alive and currently in action. It's that classic stoner conversation when you're younger, where you go like, what if the color red that I see isn't the color red that you see? But we’re using the same word for it. 

My relationship to anti-Zionism was a slow build for me. I was not raised in a Zionist household. I was raised in a pretty secular Jewish household and honestly a pretty assimilated Jewish household in the Bay Area. I sort of hesitate to say that out loud, because as I've talked to Tracy about, sometimes people will use that as a way of discrediting me because they're like, “oh, well, you have a different relationship to being Jewish, or you have a different relationship to Jewish community than I do, and therefore you don't have the credentials to talk about this.”

In addition to that, being an anti-Zionist, people will often say, “well, you're a self-hating Jew.” My version of anti-Zionism is very rooted in a love for my people, but it's also very rooted in a love for all people and not an exclusive tribalism. It's also rooted in a history that is both deep in the US as American Jews, and also deep prior to Jewish Eastern European immigration to the US. There's a really long history of anti-Zionism in both of those places.

I'm more interested in investing in my home and my homeland where I live, where I am presently and in the communities and the people that I live with currently. That's not to say I want to abandon all of the people who live in Israel/Palestine in any way, shape, or form, but I don't believe in this idea of Israel, the country, as the savior and safety and only option for Jewish people, especially at the expense of another group of people. I think to believe in that is to abandon the diaspora. There's a really long important history to Jewish diaspora. I'm interested in investing in that and in protecting Jews and all other people through solidarity and through strength in community and not a focus on nationalism.

Tracy: I just want to bring up one thing that you said, Sam, that I feel like is really important for whoever I think might be reading this piece. You said, “it doesn't mean that I want to abandon the people who live in Israel/Palestine.” And I think that that is a really important thing and I think one of the places where I felt like I could connect to you and to your values. I think that a lot of times Zionist Jews hear anti-Zionist Jews say many of the other things you just said about your focus on diaspora, but they don't hear, “I don't want to abandon the Jews who live in Israel in Israel.” I think that some Jewish people in Zionist spaces do feel that anti-Zionist Jews are abandoning them.

Emily: When I hear these points, I'm like, well, what's the problem? A diaspora can exist and Israel can exist. They can exist for different reasons, different purposes. I think what more Zionist-focused Jews see are anti-Zionist Jews seeming to almost actively want Israel to be destroyed. So how do you address that critique, that so much of the criticism we hear of Israel is leading toward this path of Israel not existing at all?

Sam: That's a really big question. I don't wanna take us too far down the rabbit hole, because I think this is where these conversations tend to sort of fall apart. But I will say, I've been thinking a lot about the different forms of Zionism. When you think about Herzl’s idea of Zionism, that was about having a country where Jews could be the ones in power. To really simplify it down, that was what he was interested in. He was a secular Jew. He was first frustrated, then scared by the anti-Semitic class divisions that were happening in Europe at the time. He wanted to be a part of this higher society as an assimilated Jew, but he was being excluded from it because he was a Jew no matter how assimilated he became. Maybe he saw the writing on the wall. He was using colonial language in the letters he was writing, such as his 1902 letter to Cecil Rhodes, in the way he was talking about this vision. Then later you have religious Zionism, which is a different vision of why Israel needs to exist. And then you have the modern day state of Israel.

For me, the issue is not with Israel as the people, or Israel as the land. The issue is with Israel as the country and the way that it is set up, the way that its creation came to be, which was at the dispossession of hundreds of thousands of people, and the way that it continues to carry that legacy out, which is to make a group of people, Palestinians, second-class citizens, even if they are citizens within the borders, and then to continue to expand this occupation and push people out of their homes, burn their fields, limit their access to water, limit their access to medical care, and so on. If we truly believe in a democracy, if we truly believe in a place where people are living under a democracy, then everyone who is a part of that country needs to have equal rights. And that's very fundamental to democracy. What I wrote to Tracy in the letter was, Zionism is what Zionism does, and what Zionism is doing right now is what we're seeing in front of us – that includes the oppression of Palestinian Israelis and what Israel is doing to Gazan civilians right now.

Emily: Tracy, how do you respond to that?

Tracy: I think Zionism has never had one definition and today continues to not have one definition for Jewish people who still feel attached to it. And so to boil down the whole entire situation of this region, of the word, this war, and this system of what I agree is a nationalistic system of oppression, to boil it down to one definition or one enactment of Zionism, I guess doesn't make sense to me. I don't think that that tracks with how Jews have struggled with this term and this idea, and I don’t think it honors or holds the struggle that so many Jews are experiencing today. We are no longer in a Zionist/anti-Zionist binary. People today identify with words like “non- Zionist,” “post-Zionist,” “cultural Zionist,” “liberal Zionist,” “pro-Israel,” and “confused.”

I also can understand, Sam, what you're saying, because I do think that a country is in many ways what its actions are. And also I think that there are so many Israelis and so many Jewish people in the diaspora who have been and continue to be against the direction that Zionism has taken in Israel over the past several decades, a form of Zionism that has become increasingly more supremacist, extreme, and oppressive. I guess I remain hopeful that our people can course correct with recognition, reconciliation, and repair, and that diplomatic solutions can be found so that Jewish Israelis and Palestinians can all find peace, freedom, safety, and equality.

Emily: The way I define Zionism is as a Jewish liberation movement. I don't see it as wholly different from any other kind of indigenous rights movement. There are so many people who have been saved by this ideology, by this liberation movement. I don't want to go down this kind of tit-for tat-path, but Israel has created all these peace deals, it accepted the Peel Commission, it would've taken like two square miles of the land and put some Jews there just for safety purposes. Tracy, you and I have talked about how our backgrounds inform our views. Your background is in ethics, and my background is in theology. I see things through a theological lens and I see this as a religious war in a way.

Tracy: I actually don't see Israel as a liberation movement today, though I agree its roots were liberatory. I see Israel today as a country that exists with real people who live there, and a societal infrastructure, a culture of its own, language, and institutions. I see it as just a real place where people need to be able to continue to live just like every country in the world. 

Sam: And I'm seeing things through a systems and power lens. And then our positions all kind of make sense.

Emily: So as the two of you have navigated your conversations, where are some of the places where you converged, and where did you remain apart? 

Tracy: Sam, you've talked about being anti-nationalist. I do not ascribe to that ideology. That is a place we still diverge that is a foundation to some of our beliefs. I think that places where we've converged, from my perspective, are around the value of human life and also, what you said earlier, Sam, that you don't negate the existence of Jews who are living in Israel. One of the first things that Sam and I talked about was what we've been doing since October 7th. And I think I was so surprised, Sam, to learn about what you had been doing since October 7th and how in many ways what you've been doing since October 7th was very similar to what I've been doing to October 7th, which is feeling really sad, hurt, and consumed, feeling like you want to learn, spending way too many hours a day, taking in information, trying to have conversations with people who aren't on the same page with us for the sake of saving relationships or keeping connections within our communities or families or the Jewish people, more generally. Realizing that the reason we both care and we're so consumed is because of our Judaism. It's led us on slightly different paths, but actually we're just these broken people who are walking around the streets of Seattle. I think that spending the time to explain ourselves and to tell our stories to each other allows me to hear what you have to say in a different way and accept them into my own consciousness a little bit more.

Sam: Something that I found really helpful in conversations that we've had and also in conversations with other people in my life is like, when those moments of conflict start to happen, is pausing and re-rooting in our shared values and our vision for the long-term future, because at least for the people that are in my life, those things are often shared and often things that we really have in common. This includes things like ceasefire, equal rights for everyone, a sense of safety and belonging for everyone. 

Emily: This is really, in a way, a conversation about a conversation. We're not getting into so many of the technical points that could unravel this and keep us here for hours. What do we do now? How can we move forward?

Tracy: So that's a big point of conversation. Sam, in your letter you wrote, join a broad coalition taking to the streets. That it's worth becoming comfortable acting alongside people that you don't agree with. That was the part of your letter that I was like, okay, that's a pretty good point actually. I still think that's a good point, and I struggle with it a lot. I push myself and see how I feel and then sometimes move a step forward or sometimes decide I'm going to stay back. 

What we haven't talked about in this conversation is how terribly awry and off-base parts of the movement have gone, to the point where I do actually believe some of the ideas that are being perpetrated by the pro-Palestine movement are very harmful toward Jewish people in this moment and for our future. I still struggle with that, and I don't think I've arrived at a clear place of what to do with the reality that Jews and progressive Jews who don't ascribe to anti-Zionism are being cleaved from progressivism. And the fact that Jews need to be standing up and not being so silent, even if the movement isn't perfect. I just think both those things are true at the same time, and I still feel stuck between those two things, even after lots of conversations.

Sam: To be clear, I'm not a blanket supporter of everything that ever happens or is said or is done by people calling themselves anti-Zionists. There are places where I disagree. There are places where I'm like, “oh, that is anti-Semitic.” I think that there are multiple movements happening all at once and there are multiple camps within each of those movements. Just like Judaism is not all one thing, anti-Zionism is not all one thing. You take the actions that you feel comfortable with or that push you a little bit. Try to just do one thing every week or every day, whether that's talking to somebody, whether that's donating to somebody's GoFundMe, whether that's calling your representative and making your voice heard, whether that's showing up at a protest. There's so many different ways that you can do these things. It doesn't mean that you're blanket signing on to stand with people that you don't agree with, but it does mean that you're acting on your morals and your ethics alongside other people.

Tracy: That's a really important point to drive home. I think that a lot of times Zionist Jews can, specially now nine months into this current moment, Zionist Jews who might ascribe themselves as being progressive Zionists, liberal, religious Zionists, plain old Zionist, pro-Israel, whatever, I think there's a recognition among people who identify with anything related to Zionism that that can mean so many different things. And I really feel like there's a lack of recognition that anti-Zionism also can mean many different things and is also not monolithic. And it feels like a lot of times from the institutional Jewish community, anti-Zionism is thought of as a monolithic set of beliefs, that all anti-Zionists are the same.

Emily: So, what’s next? Explain what you’re doing.

Sam: After we talked on Zoom twice, we met up for coffee and then we had an in-person meeting. And at that point we decided that maybe the conversations that we were having could be useful to other Jews. So we basically agreed that we would reach out to some people in both of our networks, in both of our worlds, people that we were talking to regularly about these things who were also kind of interested in hearing from people that maybe they didn't agree with or just being in space and being able to hold our grief together in person.

For the first conversation with the larger group, it was two hours long. There were tears, there were tissue boxes, there was coffee and various things to eat, and I made challah. It was a little scary, but it ended up being really, at least for me, like nervous-system settling. I was exhausted afterwards, but I also felt like I got to sit in a room of people who are all heartbroken and are all also confused and are all also trying to figure out a way forward and who were willing to hear that from each other along with our goals or our visions.

Tracy: One of the people who came to our group called me afterwards and said “that was magic!” I would agree, I guess not because it was perfect, but because it feels like we’re bridging a little bit of what’s broken right now. From the macro to the meso, to the micro internal systems within each of us, broken, broken, broken, broken, all broken, on so many levels. It's a lot to bear. Even in a conversation like the one we are having right now, there's a little bit less fragmentation, I guess, which gives me hope.

Are you interested in participating in this conversation with Tracy and Sam? The next conversation group is at capacity, but you can fill out this form to be updated about plans for larger-scale community gatherings.

Cover photo: Jewish Voice for Peace-Seattle, Palestine Solidarity Committee, Voices of Palestine, Dyke Community Activists and Women in Black joined together to protest the Siege of Gaza in downtown Seattle on December 2nd (2006). Jewish Voice for Peace/Wikimedia Commons

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In other news…

On Monday night, shots were fired outside of Sephardic Bikur Holim synagogue in Seward Park. According to initial reports, it was a personal alternation and not connected to the Jewish community.

On Tuesday, in an act of vandalism that was a little too on the nose, the Holocaust Center for Humanity’s windows, in downtown Seattle, were defaced with “Gaza Genocide” scrawled in red paint over the face of late Holocaust survivor Steve Adler. Police are investigating it as a hate crime.

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Community Announcements

Check out the Seattle Jewish community calendar.

Check out ways to support Israel through UNX (UnXeptable) Seattle.

Candlelighting in Seattle is at 8:52 p.m. The parasha is Beha’alotcha.

The Cholent is traveling to Israel this summer. Newsletters are still in the works I’ll be taking a little bit of time off from writing.

Shoutouts

Mazal tov to Ray Levy and Jordan Silver on their wedding! —Elie & Miriam Levy

Great appreciation for all the awardees at this year's JFGS annual meeting: 

• Connie Burk, Executive Director, Kol HaNeshamah - Pamela Waechter z”l Jewish Communal Professional Award

• Akiva Erezim & Stephanie Shujman - Jack J. & Charlotte Spitzer Young Leadership Award

• State Senator Javier Valdez - Tikkun Olam Award for Public Service

• David Ellenhorn - L’Dor V’Dor Award

• Hart Cole & Stephanie Shujman -Dr. Charles & Lillian Kaplan Board Chair’s Award for Outstanding Service

• Nancy B. Greer - Althea Stroum Woman of Distinction Award

and to all the staff and volunteers who make ours such a strong Jewish community.

—Linda Clifton